There are big changes coming to EVE Online in the summer expansion. One of the biggest changes will be to the way refining and reprocessing works and is calculated. There will be new formulas, new incentives to reprocess in outposts and POSes, and large changes to the ways mineral compression works. We are also improving the functionality of the reprocessing window.

CCP Ytterbium details all these changes in this new dev blog!

So miners and re-processors shouldn't be rewarded for taking more risk?

well, kinda... Mining can be done afk meaning that it can potentially be botted (sorry, no method of bot detection short of full system analysis is full-proof). Because it can be botted, making it more profitable can produce more bots doing it.

If you want to see a real buff to mining as a profession, they need to change how mining is done in the same way that hacking was changed to be more interactive. I'm not saying add a click fest... I want to see something done for mining that rewards being at the keyboard with more ore and fun. This would also make botting more difficult (or at the very least more complex - interactive can be tough) which means more value added to the real miners.

This is indeed the problem. So why can't the null sec power blocks HTFU and provide security for a mining operation in their systems? Or is it easier just to elect one of your ranks to the CSM and have that person fly to Iceland to cry all over the conference room table until you get what you want?

The question is 100% of what? A percent alone does not tell the story. For example the new cap for efficiency is 86.9%.

Lets go through the steps:

1) CCP magically adds 38.1% more minerals to all ores.
2) Your old efficiency in high sec was 100% of the minerals in the ore, but now the ore has more minerals.
3) Your new efficiency in high sec is 72.4%* of the minerals in the ore, but no one can get more than 86.9%. Your new efficiency gives you the same number of minerals.
4) OH MY THERE ARE MINERALS LEFT IN THE ORE!!!! - Those minerals were not there before. So if you compare the number of minerals received from old method vs new method then you could have a percentage above 100%. This means CCP is buffing the minerals obtained from ore, but we already know that because in step one CCP magically added more minerals.
* The caveat is that you need to have maxed skills. If you skimped because you were "good enough," well times change and you aren't.

More lies. Anomalies in high sec are mined out very quickly. There is system after system of belts in null sec with great ore that you guys can't seem to figure out how to take safely. Either that or you are too lazy to take it.

Yep, that's why the nerfed tech moons which we mostly controlled.

You're usually good with the market stuff. Didn't you read the dev blog? It says very very explicitly, that an absolutely maxed out (someone else did the math that it's 200 days worth of skills, i.e., nearly equivalent to a titan parking alt) would STILL have a lower refining yield than now. The dev blog also listed a more normal loss amount as well, at a 30% nerf to all empire refining. Not to mention the unapologetic PVE nerf. This change is yet another wealth redistribution. It gives (yes, gives, because it's a freebie, result of CSM politics) nullsec alliances a 60% or so economic advantage in anything that's made out of minerals (i.e. those super caps they use to hang onto their sov, and oh by the way get even better mineral compression than ever to help build.) That data is right there in the dev blog, and it just takes arithmetic.

If there's a decent margin in it, I'd certainly take up refining ore for profit.

Around 30 days from now, I'd have all the highsec ores at 5 for perfect refine. I already have the standing for perfect refine. So that's an implant, at around 300 million or so (ignoring the current markup on it, since the devblog came out)

Any decent corporation would take care of refining for its members. Easy enough to split the ore requirements between multiple characters.

And it's not like anyone in highsec needs all the ore skills. the ABCs aren't available. Lowsec ores are only in sites.

Both Refining and Refinery Efficiency affect modules reprocessing pre-nerf. As well as Implants. You can use an implant and skip Scrapmetal Processing currently, so yes, if you have Scrapmetal Processing and Implant is useless, but only then. You can currently get 100% yield on an item VERY easily with Standings (just need about 3 weeks of training instead of 6)

How about giving low sec and npc null sec some much needed love as you suggested in the Blog ytterbium. I assume you are referring the POS changes being the buff to low sec, even though it will still be much easier to use the POS in high sec.

Increase the base reprocessing rate of stations in low sec and npc null sec to 55%.

yeah uh no, that's not how many skillpoints it would take

a titan is two years of training

the 200 days was me, and much of that is highend ores, you can bust out all highsec ores easily by patch day, and that also included ampV because i was inattentive to my skillplan (whoops)

since i am an overman and live in null i may have need of highend refining as well so i'll do that but someone with zero refining skills can become a perfect veldspar refiner in under 30d then its about 5 days max for each additional highsec ore, so the people scrabbling in the dirt in highsec don't have that sort of training time

but yes, people more skilled than you should get more rewards but it takes like three guys with the skills in jita to drive profits down to minimal levels

I like this change, it gives something nice to every area of the game and makes the value of Compressed Ore vs Ore vs Minerals or Compressed Ice vs Ice products fresh and more fluid again. The only ones losing out for now are Rorqual pilots, who lose their nich+¬ (compression).

Some basic points I think CCP misses:
- There are two types of isk: server generated and isk made from other players
- Server generated isk adds to mudflation
- isk made from other players drives down mudflation as eventually those sold goods are blown up.
- Players engaging in PvE have choices which effect the ratio of server isk to player isk
- Loot nerf leads to less mission / ratting / anoms being looted

- Increased ratio of speed running missions means:
- Dilution of LP values
- Increase in salvage value
- Increase in server isk to player isk ratio which = mudflation
- Increase entry barrier for new players


Last I heard something like 80% of players reside in high sec. CCP thinks if it keeps buffing null sec income it will get those players to go to null yet somehow keep forgetting the huge entry barrier to null and the fact that if you want null to become as popular has high sec you have to attract all kinds of players to null.

Currently null sec favors only one kind of player and that is the type like to shoot at everything. Null sec mechanics do not favor industrial types. So CCP keeps buffing what large coalitions can make which just further increases the entry barrier to null. No matter how much you boost mining if you have to have 3 combat pilots to protect every miner / hauler / booster then that means less isk per character involved in the mining op.

The bubble proof interceptors while I love them for getting around null make it so the only way to protect a mining op from a hot drop is to move so deep into null that you are out of cyno range or any red territory. This just further increases the entry barrier to null for newer players and newer corps / alliances

If you want null more active you need to increase the amount of newer players and newer / lower population corps and alliances. If you want that you need to increase the tools for Coalitions and Alliance to open their space to other players. The types of things I can think of to do is are:
- An easy way to share standings publicly like allowing anyone to have their local chat display the standing that any person, alliance or corp chooses to make public.
- More tools to earn isk from neutrals like the ability to set rates of tax i.e. bounty sharing rates
- Tools to tax ore removed from system.

Current null sec mechanics encourage large Coalitions to lock down huge sections of space to not get used. If you want to make null more active you need to change that and create mechanics that incentivise sov holders to encourage other players to use their space. This creates a mechanic where as an Alliance leader I want as many friendlies in my space as possible and as few in my competitors space as possible. So if I set my tax rates too high independents will go to my competition. If I keep my space safer it will be more valuable. If I make my competitors space less safe it will drive down the value of their space.

In short you need to make it so that sov holders are actively seeking more people to come use their space in stead of the mechanic which we currently have which is to encourage them to keep as many people as possible out of their space. The more valuable you make null under the current mechanics the more you make profitable to lock down your boarders and keep as many people out of null as possible.

So instead of trying to make everyone fight regardless of their play style why not make it so that those who like to fight can and those that like to produce can and create tools for the producers to be able to pay the combatants.

1) EVE doesn't have an end-game.

2) If you love WoW so much because of the "end game" (which is simply levelling your gear instead of your character), why don't you go back there?

3) All the games which try to replicate WoW's model fail. Why should EVE try to emulate WoW when it already has a model that has worked for 10 years?

4) EVE doesn't have an end-game, so discussion of "end game content" is meaningless.

Well, they do get access to the intensive refining array, with a higher return on it.

I don't really get the rage over the implant, it's only like 300m, if they were asking people for a cosmos implant or something maybe that would be an issue but the 4% is like nothing, not even the cost of a normal set of +5s

This applies to indies, not newbros.

And as soon as indies start contributing to the good of the alliance at the same level as a PvP player, we will stop treating them like second class citizens.

But to contribute on that level would require them either providing supplies at MASSIVE discounts (And I don't mean 5% over Jita), or supplying the alliance with a flat tax of isk, minerals or ore.

If you want to come out and give your alliance a 30% discount in order to keep your value anywhere near that of a PvP player, then alliances will welcome you with open arms.

But if you think nullsec is your personal isk printing ground for mining, and that providing supplies to the alliance at only slightly ABOVE Jita is some sort of valuable contribution worthy of other people protecting you and the space you live in, you have your head in the sand.

And guess what? Most indy guys only want to go to null to make more money. Actually helping their alliance by decreasing their profit margins or spending time to PvP is nowhere on their agenda. They might pretend to agree to do so, but 90% of the time, they get out there and do absolutely nothing of significant benefit to the alliance.

TLDR: You can have mining profit, with effort paid for living there by PvPing, or you mine there and pay the alliance to protect you with a significant chunk of your efforts, or you can sit in highsec and pathetically whine about how nullsec alliances don't like miners. Pick one.

"Keep calm and carry on"

This is not something to be calm about. You're going to ruin Pro Synergy, a salvaging service corp, and they're already hitting harder times because of the MTU. This is going to be a huge hit to new players and mission runners who rely on their services to become established in eve, and your "compensation" does nothing to help them.

This change is not something I can support at all.

This may surprise you, but people who only run anoms all day instead of helping their alliance by PvPing are called RENTERS!

You can rent and then mine. You can rent and then run anoms. You can rent and then sing Turkish Opera in local.

You can join an alliance, PvP, then mine. You can join an alliance, PvP, then run anoms. You can join an alliance, PvP, then sing Turkish Opera in local.

Either way, you are paying with your time, in the form of PvP, or in isk, or in minerals.

But living in nullsec has a price, and the price is time spent helping you alliance, one way or another.

You are entitled to NOTHING.

It's the circle of life. Just keep training for what the current doctrine is, getting cut off before you finish it, rinse repeat.

Eventually, it might be a month, six months, a year, three years, but the doctrine you half trained for will come back, and you will be ready.

Remember Hellcat abbadons? Amarr BS V and t2 LG lasers. It took a hell of a long time to come back, but Apocs needing the same skills are now a thing.

Circle of life :)

Tell me Krom. As a nullsec miner living in the space of an alliance that protects you so that you don't have to protect yourself, which one of these is an appropriate price for Trit?

A: Jita price.

B: Above Jita price

C: Below Jita price


If A: We don't need you because we can do that via compression and JF with minimal costs, in much higher volume, on demand.

If B: **** off, we REALLY don't need you because we can import it at Jita price.

If C: Are you seriously saying there are miners willing to come to nullsec, mine Tritanium, then get paid less for it than highsec miners get paid for less effort? Well come on in. We'd love tons of trit at 75% of Jita price.

since i can't be assed to read all 30 pages, i'll just ask: has there been any thought on making refining less than instant? it does not have to scale linearly, but even a logarithmically scaling duration would be better than than just snapping your fingers and turning millions of tons of stuff into other stuff.

Man, if this is the usufruct of some sort of relationship with CCP, we've really fucked up. Instead of the way it's being laid out, where you have to spend 60 billion ISK to get the 60% efficiency station, we could have gotten it for free. I guess we'll have to send our negotiators back to the table, minus a few layers of back skin from the flaying.

So we should filter out even more market volume noise in our tables now? ;)

Death of the casual player. Join a 0.0 alliance, pay tribute, force yourself to login for CTAs, activity minimums. Screw having a real life. We have gone from sandbox to WoW style level regions.

You aren't meant to compete with them.

This whole change is precisely tailored at bringing in the long time request of large null sec alliances (expecially one) to have everything made the best for them "because we fought to hold sov".

Therefore you are meant to either suck up and join them or close shop.

My drink is empty.

If I read this all correctly I'm going to get hit with a very large nerf bat.

The timing is such that I should stock up like hell before the patch.

Once it is over I should hope that bounties alone will pay my way for the next 18 months until the economy recovers (yes I am looking at you battleship BPO)

Oh wait. I really don't give a flying squirrel and will just adapt.

Bartender!

Really, CCP? What a f*cked way to start off announcing summer features.


So in short you're nerfing hisec. Woohoo, sure makes me look forward to this summer then. Sure, the refining bit needed work, but you really didn't have to completely destroy mineral compression and reprocessing loot, as well as drop ore yields down the shitter.


No, I'd rather have it the way it currently is than what you're planning, even if some parts make sense. Stop f*cking up the game, you've done enough already.

We'd have to buff null (again) to compensate Goons for all their lost incomeGǪ

what i think about the refining array is: either they can't get the refining array to use your skills (bc programming limitation), or like other new things in EVE they make it OP at first so that people will want to use it/make it a thing. I know of quite a few people who will be happy about this change.

anyway. refining, mining, all PVE sources of isk should be the worst in highsec. make it a sample of game mechanics, but nothing more.

if the refining array is your new best option, go with it.

instead of worrying about mega allies, find a way to join one.

oh dear me in order to compete economically with nullsec i might have to put in a fraction of the effort they do?

heavens to betsy this can't be happening what kind of monster would put in a change that would do that

mommmyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

what i don't get is ... if you see how much better entity A's margins will be over entity B, why not ... join entity A? the only reasons I can come up with are RP.

Love the changes!!!

2 things caught my eye and made me sigh,
1) Refining Arrays Just doing max regardless of skills. (Why train, just drop and pos and move on with life, It breaks the system you are trying to implement)
2) Compression, the Roq is back to being useless, you had it shining again for 30secs, then said don't worry you can us a POS module.

I love it cause it prevents Modules as the primary means of transporting minerals for mass production. But you went and nerfed ships that need to the heart and soul of operations!

My suggestions

1) Move the Refining Arrays out of the POS and make them Deployable Objects, and have then refine based on the user of the object!

2) MAKE THE Roqual Worth something! It needs to have its nitch that is not being shared with a POS or deployable object.

So, as a lowsec builder, what I'm getting is that I have to either run around picking up ore, or give part of my margin to some ******* who's willing to compress it for me. Also, I need a tower in lowsec to keep up with the joneses. Also, anybody who builds in sov null and jumps the finished product to low can crush me.

I'm not going to threaten to leave the game or anything, but if you're going to **** my livelihood from three directions at once you could at least not be all condescending about how nobody has anything to worry about.

I don't get why they just didn't make the Orca into a mini Rorq that lets you compress in highsec.

because it's already a mini carrier :-3

<3 <3 orcas

Taking nearly 30% of a yield is not a small change by any means, I now have to do 30% more to match miners who now have to do 10% less (assuming they take the 2 minutes to find a new favorable refining station), and null folks who do practically nothing to suckle on the teet of R32/R64 Passive moongoo.

I shouldn't have to contemplate branching out, I shouldn't have to contemplate moving, the only reason for this change is to appease null sec groups and CCP's ridiculous fascination with reading news reports about how 4K nolifes spent 18 hours fighting in .01% real time.

I get you are Goonie, and have blued 3/4 of EVE already, but I don't feel that forcing folks to kiss a ring of a null lord is promoting emergent game play. It makes no sense and only further decreases the value of living and operating in Low Security space.

they're trying to see how ****** they can make the game for miners before they realize their life sucks

What world do you live in? I still see ice belts and planets to do pi at in highsec. We have the SAME ice belt mechanics in null as you do in empire.

Fortunately, any given CSM member does not need to please the entire playerbase to make it on the CSM. It's only necessary to throw in with our voting bloc.

So querns already made the point that you don't seem to get how asteroid belts work, so let's attack the rest of your premise. Imagine thescenario. You are a three day old newbie in an alliance well known for loving its newbies. You're looking for something to do, so do you a) start training down a pointless dead end training path (considering you want to pvp) and grab a venture, then go mining for 5m isk/hr? b) Run around behind a veteran looting his ratting sites for what is certainly more than that? c) bug a mentor for a stack of free frigates, have fun PvPing, then say something adorable on voice comms and get showered with more isk than you think you can possibly ever use (really, a couple hundred million) because of it?

Hint: The answer is not A.

And to squash the typical and hilariously wrong response I always see, the answer still does not become A if the person looking to buy the minerals just doubles the price he's willing to pay, because if you need some minerals are you going to a) offer to pay twice the going price just so you can get them locally or b) import them from empire in one of any of the readily available compressed forms?

Hint: The answer is, once again, not A.

Just to cap things off, none of this changes if we're talking about a veteran player, except the activities are more like A) jump into your mackinaw and, realizing you've trained yourself down a dead-end training path, drink yourself into a stupor while mining these "pristine belts" for (at best) about 35m/hr b) run around as the veteran newbies follow around, ratting for a minimum of 60m/hr or c) Go out and have fun PvPing, knowing that if you die, you'll actually make money because of the corp reimbursement policies. Or, d), **** off to FW lowsec on an alt and farm the missions for far more isk/hr than anything you'll do in your own space... but that's a different topic entirely.

Answer? Still not A, sorry.

In case you weren't aware, grav sites (the scanner based mining sites) respawn pretty much instantly if they're fully mined out. In other words, it's not like a lack of ore is why "we can't get enough minerals" - it's got everything to do with mining simply not being a worthwhile task.



Oh no, now you'll have to train your skills up to their maximum level and use implants to achieve your fullest potential, just like every other activity in the game!

Funny to see goonies telling everyone how mining works when across their vast 3/4 of null asteroid belts sit untouched. "Oooh the mechanics" What a load of **** Mynnna. I respect your grasp on economics in the game but this is a pretty weak reach for justifying the fact that all across CFC space there are thousands of roids untouched. Its not the mechanics, its cowardice and laziness. Im sure if you could passively grab those rocks like moongoo you and your friends would have stopped complaining years ago.

Let me guess its the afk cloaky dudes fault. Maybe you should have Martini ask for another round of forum alt warriors to spread the news.

What a joke.

Why would we need to whine on eve-o when we have multiple CSM members?

Oh okay, so now we're expecting these three day old newbies to be running multiple accounts in order to serve as our slave labor?

Answer still not A, sorry.

And if we're talking about veteran players, well, Ishtars can be multiboxed quite effectively as well and so scale horizontally almost as well as mining does. They don't scale horizontally as far, but I've heard four or five is manageable and anomaly respawns can certainly support that. So, 240-300m/hr from those 4-5 ishtars. Multiboxed mining gang would need about 8-10 mackinaws to match that, but only if they have a rorqual for boosts, a hauler or two, and never have to move or do anything to interrupt the on-paper isk per hour value. Hulks, while they're higher yield, really aren't worth comparing since the requisite effort is a considerably larger increase.

So for most people the answer is still A, and unfortunately, the number of mass multiboxing sperglords in this game is low enough that, yeah, they still don't really supply enough minerals. Good thing compression exists, huh?

The inherent risk that comes with living in nullsec.

Yet it entitles your CSM members to lobby for changes to mechanics that don't even impact "you", all because you refuse to mine belts in your own space. Sounds about par for the course for Goon Logic.

You will need the 4% reprocessing implant if you want to reach the old rates yes. We also discussed the point you mention, but in the end we didn't want to increase reprocessing rates for high-security NPC stations, and as such counted the implant as base for the change.